Curse

Former Ruling · Nov 15, 2006, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Some observations from me:
1) Heros/ are much more effective for a fast and easy way through the game than pugs. They can be controlled, and skilled how you like, and never Rage/Suck skill wise/irritate you with 10 yr old dribble.

2) Puging on the other hand is more social and though it is less effective at quickly getting you what you want, it has the potential to be a much more enjoyable time with new friends, human interaction, etc.

Which one is "better" really depends on your quality of PuGs and what you are doing with them...

For me:

Most missions I will heroway to get through it quicker and with less hassle. If I think PuGing would be a better way to go (I dont like henching with my monk for example) I use my own common sense to pick groups and who I want to go with to try to lessen my chances of getting completely irritated with the pug choice.

For farming I try to go solo when I can, and if I need a group, I try to go with guildies/friends. I really have a short fuse when it comes to PuGs and defined farming routes and builds. If you advertised yourself as a BP ranger and we go outside and you don't have a pet...you don't get second chances, you should have figured out BEFORE we went in what a BP ranger means, you could have asked in the group..

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Would it make me a bad person if I don't care about exceptions?

Take a look at the posts in this now 14-page thread. The vast majority of them can be grouped under the categories I have laid out. If you are an exception, I'm obviously not talking to you.

I just find it infernally stupid to keep arguing the same points over and over again. It basically comes down to "I don't like to PuG because PuGs suck for reason X (bad attitudes, suck at the game, can't find groups, etc.)" vs. "Heroes are ruining the game because people don't PuG anymore" (which has been shown to be patently false) vs. "I PuG because of reason X (PuGs are more fun, I want a social experience, etc.)".

The people who PuG can continue to PuG, the people who don't can continue not to, and the people who think that Heroes are ruining the game need to reread the whole thread. Aside from the random exception like you ("I don't want to inconvenience people"), there's really nothing else to say.

Nemon · Nov 15, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

The real crux of the issue is that some people (myself included) believe the new heroes system is implemented poorly and as a result encourages people to be uncooperative. You can disagree with that but you're not being constructive.

My suggestion would have hardly any impact on henchers and imho would help people who want to PuG by reducing the incentive for players to hench half the game. If players wanted to hench it wouldn't matter either way. I don't see why there is such heated debate here. What i suggest is all positive and no negative ramifications.

Henchers in this topic are just arguing and pissing on my _fair_ ideas for no good reason. Whether i am right or wrong my suggestions are fair and positive which is a lot more than can be said for some of the self serving drivel i've read.

glountz · Nov 15, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

You can disagree with that but you're not being constructive.

My suggestion would have hardly any impact on henchers and imho would help people who want to PuG by reducing the incentive for players to hench half the game. If players wanted to hench it wouldn't matter either way. I don't see why there is such heated debate here. What i suggest is all positive and no negative ramifications.

Henchers in this topic are just arguing and pissing on my _fair_ ideas for no good reason. Whether i am right or wrong my suggestions are fair and positive which is a lot more than can be said for some of the self serving drivel i've read.

Pro-PuG ranter's idea, that is limiting heroes number or simply removing them from missions, is completely unfair to henchers.
As well, you're making henchers upset by simply ignoring their arguments, and making them responsible for a) bad PuG experiences, which is false, b) lack of cooperative play and bad community, which is also false, as you confuse cause and consequence. They have already stated that heroes were not the problem, and that the poor playerbase was the biggest issue and resulted in PuG-avoidance behavior.
Limiting heroes is not the solution, improving PuG system is the way to go. Some pro-PuG people even made propositions in this way. FexFx already proposed a "mentor" system to improve pugging and reduce the gap between so-called "vets" and "newbs". I proposed myself many solutions to improve PuGing system.
I quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glountz

I will PuG again when:
- Guild wars will have built-in audio communication program which you will be able to turn on/off.
- Guild Wars will actually have ultra hard training missions on the noob island. So you learn something before going further. I thought this was the case the first time I met instructor Ng in Factions but it was seriously a joke. Make training quests with high reward that require group coordination and a correct build (build being explained before, for example, mobs doing a healing bubble requiring strong enchantment removal etc...)
- Guild wars will actually show the skillbar/energy/health of EACH PARTY MEMBER instead of just the heroes you control.
- Guild wars will be less harsh on new players, giving them poor and too few skills to compete with full of Elite veterans' builds. Giving them at the end of the noob island a set of elite skills they could choose at least one from as well as ugly but max equipment would be a really good thing (as a reward for hard training quests, for example).

You're the one being pissy and wanting absolutely the last word.
Rera was right despite his abusive generalisations and I will stop arguing against walls.
Let Anet have the last word on this.

Nemon · Nov 15, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I keep replying because people are putting words in my mouth, and this topic both amuses and interests me.

Ultimately in my eyes this issues has nothing todo with pro-hench players. If or when such changes to the game impact hench players then sure i could see their concearn, but right now it's the hench players who have no problem yet are argueing form a corner anyway.

My final suggestion is to have a heroes level linked to the players. This seems a completely reasonable suggestion to me, but i'm sure you're going to tell me otherwise. I also think every mission after the 10th should be comperable in difficulty to the second to last. It kinda sucks just completing every missions first try, and if the later missions were harder some of the players who are blowing through the game with hench might stop and go seek help from other players. I think your own suggestions for improving PuGs are good too.

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

The pro-hench players have no problems with the current system (well, I'd like to have 7 heroes instead of 3, but that's a different issue altogether). The reason this thread exists is because the anti-hench players *perceive* a problem with the system and are making a big issue out of it. The pro-henchers would just prefer everyone to shut up and leave the system alone. And that's why we have 14 pages of essentially the same arguments over and over again.

I'm all for linking hero level to player level. This means I don't have to go back and level any of my neglected heroes. I'm also for allowing heroes access to equipment creation like PvP characters, so I don't have to equip them either. This would also stabilize prices for many items, low-end runes in particular.

Jetdoc · Nov 15, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

"Heroes are ruining the game because increasingly LESS people PuG" (which has been shown to be patently false).

I edited your post to more accurately present "that side" of the argument.

Go to Henge of Denravi and try to get together a group for the Defend Denravi quest.

Before the introduction of Heroes, I could get a group together in about 30 minutes.

Now, I can't even get one person to join me (unless they have their heroes) in over an hour.

That is a very clear example of what we are seeing.

Jetdoc · Nov 15, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Camp 1: People who care about doing things as efficiently as possible in a single player PvE game;
Camp 2: People who care about playing a multiplayer PvE game.

Again, edited to better clarify the two positions.

crimsonfilms · Nov 15, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Go to Henge of Denravi and try to get together a group for the Defend Denravi quest.
Before the introduction of Heroes, I could get a group together in about 30 minutes.
Now, I can't even get one person to join me (unless they have their heroes) in over an hour.
That is a very clear example of what we are seeing.

Uhm, this has been an issue BEFORE Heroes. In fact, this was a concern when Factions came out. People migrating from chapter to chapter is the reality. THIS IS WHY the Heroes system exist.

Getting ONE player vs getting no player in Denravi for 30 min results in the EXACT same thing - no mission for you.

Thus, your point is moot.

If you guys want to PUG, just keep PUGing. No one said to stop. Your insistence for others to PUG with you is really why WE DONT want to PUG with you. Not to mention one of you will still bring Mending and Healing Hands on Koss.

Jyslin · Nov 15, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I have to say I love the heroes……..don’t get me wrong I have a great time with groups…even with the a few frustrating players. But more times then enough I kept getting killed thru missions or bonuses missed or caps missed…(Glints cave in particular). But one thing I don’t see is that with NF and Factions sometimes you canb’t get a group together to do an older mission or skill cap…well now the Heroes solve that problem…how many times have you tried to get a group at 3AM as you work late nights……will I stop Grouping…..NO but I will get more accomplished then sitting on my butt waiting for a monk to show up

upier · Nov 15, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

if i want to get things done i will grab hench or heros.
if i want to have the slight chance of having fun (with the chance of utter frustration) i will grab a pug. heros are pretty nice but then i am missing out on what i like about gw - human interaction.

JoeKnowMo · Nov 15, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Go to Henge of Denravi and try to get together a group for the Defend Denravi quest.

Before the introduction of Heroes, I could get a group together in about 30 minutes.

Now, I can't even get one person to join me (unless they have their heroes) in over an hour.

That is a very clear example of what we are seeing.

I couldn't get a group together for Henge or Defend Ascalon in the weeks leading up to NF.

One would expect that with a new chapter, the majority of players are in the land of that chapter (i.e., Elona).

I spent over an hour trying to get a group for Defend Droks last night with little success. From what I could tell, not a single player was pugging that quest, there just weren't enough of us who wanted to do it.

I would say that overall pugging has gone down, however, the mini-pug (2-5 players and heroes) is on the rise.

People anticipated that having 3 continents would thin out the playerbase, especially in the older chapters. So the mini-pug is probably the way of the future.

birdfoot · Nov 15, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Actually, I don't think we should blame heroes for the decline in PUGs. Sure PUGs are fun but not everyone neccessarily thinks so; we all have different experiences with PUGs. I have both good and bad experiences (more of bad) with PUGs which allows me to try them out once in awhile, that's still the most enjoyable way of playing to me. Sadly, all of my real-life friends have quit GW, some of them have done so partially due to PUGs. Ultimately, a player shouldn't be forced to play with PUGs if he/she doesn't want to as that will cause alot of frustration.

How about we have something done in GuildWarsGuru here to help PUGing supporters to find partners for PUG instead? For newer players not adopting PUG, I think the hero system is a double-edged sword. For a someone who can't appreciate PUG, it may help them to stay in the game; for one that can, the system may not recommend it, but I'm sure they'll come to realise what is really fun for them. ANet can control the game, but it's quite impossible for them to control players' mindset; they can help to shape it, but ultimately they can only provide that 10% while the 90% is just up to players themselves.

I feel that it's players who've caused the decline in PUG, not heroes. I play with PUGs for both Prophecies and Factions almost 100% of the time; and honestly, at least 70% of the time PUGs weren't a positive experience. Supposed if I had been prepared to try another game at that time (like my friends), I probably wouldn't even be posting here anymore.

Lastly, I feel that problems with PUGs will always exist, it's because it's not possible to like everyone you've met; nor agree with every single thing that others do. At the same time, it's not realistic to expect everyone to understand and accept that fact. Even though I have that understanding, I still get pissed with PUGs sometimes, it's easy to understand but often hard to accept. As such, I think we should respect the wishes of those that wanna play solo. Perhaps when they get tired of soloing, they'll start trying out playing with PUGs again.

Btw, I don't think this issue can't be managed; if any of you wants to PUG, why not try finding a group in the forums? The debate in this thread probably isn't gonna get anywhere since nobody is absolutely right or wrong. We all have our own reasoning and circumstances, we might as well try to find another approach to help the situation.

trf2374 · Nov 15, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I think part of the problem is GW's max level of 20. I played EQ for a while, and as you advanced in levels, the actual skill level of the people increased as well, for the most part. It was somewhat difficult to achieve max level in EQ, so the majority of the people you'd team up with were somewhat skilled.

In GW, a monkey could make level 20 in a week, a dedicated person can do it in hours. Now, I wouldn't change the max level in GW for anything, but that is also what is killing PuGs. Any PuGer can get level 20, but far too many of them don't know what to do with it when they get it.

I've seriously seen some scary PuGs. Before NF came out, I wanted to finish up my Ele, so I made my way into the desert to ascend. I was only level 14, but decided to PuG a mission instead of hench it. I saw too many disheartening things in just a single PuG for a single mission:

Monk/Ele who nuked and complained about their energy being low. Their only heal? MENDING! They stood by their awesome mending too, no matter how I tried to explain that it wasn't a good choice.

20 Ele/? asked why my 14 Eles energy was so high.

Was told that since I was a lower level, I would take significantly more damage every time I was hit, even after I explained I already had max armor from Cantha. Said group of level 20's finished the mission, where I was the only one without DP.
----
This being said, I think NFs way of stopping running will help thin out the bad PuGers. They'll eventually get stuck in earlier missions and barely trickle through to the end, while the better players will breeze through.

Don't get me wrong, I would so much rather play with real people. It's very noticeable that a group of decent players is worlds better than a group of henchmen. It's also very noticeable that a group of henchmen is worlds better than a large majority of PuGs.

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I edited your post to more accurately present "that side" of the argument.

Go to Henge of Denravi and try to get together a group for the Defend Denravi quest.

Before the introduction of Heroes, I could get a group together in about 30 minutes.

Now, I can't even get one person to join me (unless they have their heroes) in over an hour.

You can play with semantics all you want. Sure, you can spin it so it seems like your position makes more sense, even though we've already argued that the social aspect was never the issue, and anti-PUGs are focused on efficiency only. The fact is that if you read this thread, you already know what I was talking about.

We've already been over the issue of whether Heroes are the cause for the decline of PuG availability. Your example doesn't present anything new, and it's not even conclusive enough to support your argument. Lack of players could be due to any number of reasons, including more people playing NF instead of Prophecies. Unless you can provide more supporting evidence, I don't see any point in revisiting this issue.

If people wanted to PuG, they would. The people who are using heroes are doing so because they don't *want* to PuG. Remember that argument? Take a look around. Given the choice between Heroes and PuGs, what is everyone choosing, and more importantly why are they choosing the way they do?

Jetdoc, you seem to be stuck on the idea that the main reason people don't PuG is because they want to play alone. Where have you seen the support for this? Virtually every anti-PuG post here has stated that they would PuG if PuGs weren't complete ****. Your edit of my two categories is actually redundant, because if you care about efficiency at all, you end up playing a single-player PvE experience, because a PuG is essentially the antithesis of efficiency.

I think by now you should see that this is all going in circles. If nobody agrees on anything by now, you should all agree that we are simply not going to agree with each other on the Hero vs. PuGs issue, period.

cellardweller · Nov 16, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

if i want to get things done i will grab hench or heros.
if i want to have the slight chance of having fun (with the chance of utter frustration) i will grab a pug. heros are pretty nice but then i am missing out on what i like about gw - human interaction.

Don't mean to single you out upier, because I know this view point has been stated many times throughout this thread yours was just the closes quote button. But I find this to be a highly amusing viewpoint.

PUGing is the social equivelent of standing in an elevator with 7 other random strangers while everyone stares at the weather forcast scrolling by on the display and hoping that noone farts. Unless you're crazy enough (and patient enough) to invite people you don't know into your vent/ts servers you can't talk so everyone is standing in silence and when the door opens everyone hits the "leave" button in the party window.

Two friends and 6 heros in a private TS/Vent channel, laughing and sharing stories while breezing through a mission over glass of wine - I'll take this form of "human interaction" over a PUG any day of the week.

But back to the point of the thread - before heroes, it would have been 2 people and 6 henchies - we wouldn't have PUGed anyway so taking them away won't force us to PUG with you any more than we do now, it would just serve to annoy us.

Nemon · Nov 16, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

If people wanted to PuG, they would. The people who are using heroes are doing so because they don't *want* to PuG. Remember that argument? Take a look around. Given the choice between Heroes and PuGs, what is everyone choosing, and more importantly why are they choosing the way they do?

People _do_ PuG, but only later in the game!

The question is, _why_ are players almost completely henching earlier parts of the game and much less so later missions? To level their heroes! Sure there are other reasons too, but this is also now a big reason.

This issue is more complex than some people are treating it. It's not just a players who PuG vs players who Hench. There are different parts of the game where each has prevalence, and now _reasons_ why people who don't want to hench, do!

Players who _want_ to hench will continue to do so, but players who _want_ to PuG might now be henching _earlier_ parts of the game. Players who _want_ to hench see heroes as this new alluring thing that has encouraged PuGers to take heroes instead. This is understandable seen as they _want_ to hench anyway. PuGers, on the other hand, do not see heroes as an alluring game feature at all, and it is other factors that are now causing them to hench too. (this is the pivotal, fallible part of my reasoning)

I could be wrong, everyone might be lovin hench so much they hench all the earlier missions, but then later get bored/stuck and decided to PuG. I hope this is the case because we should see a declining trend in henchers. I still find it hard to believe fans of multiplayer coop would ever see a hero as a replacement for a PuG or GG.

Saying they would PuG if PuGs were just how they want them is just a cop out. The truth is they have unrealistic expectations of PuGs and thus they will never really _want_ to PuG. It's like me saying i would hench if hench became as fun to play with as real people, they never will for me.

Div · Nov 16, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

It's really sad that the game has changed from being a social community to a place where everyone plays alone or in small groups of 2-3 while the only all chat I see is "WTS GODLY SWORD 50K" spammed over and over again in mission towns...

trf2374 · Nov 16, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

It's really sad that the game has changed from being a social community to a place where everyone plays alone or in small groups of 2-3 while the only all chat I see is "WTS GODLY SWORD 50K" spammed over and over again in mission towns...

Those small groups of 2-3 are 2-3 people who feel they're good players, and apparently are able to advance more easily through the game with AI henchmen. Now think about that, essentially it's saying the AI henchmen are flat out better than real living & breathing people, at least in most cases concerning PuGers. And it's so sad that it's true. Now, people complain about how the AI henchmen do dumb things, and I'll agree that on occasion they do. But compared to an average PuG, they're amazing.

When some missions take 30+ minutes, I don't want to get screwed out in the end because of a ragequit or disconnect (reconnects would help this though). I also don't want to die because Whambo decides to agro more mobs before the group is ready. Also, if I (or anyone) gets a gold drop, I don't want to be pestered about it the entire mission by someone who wants to see it, buy it or beg for it.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 16, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

It's really sad that the game has changed from being a social community to a place where everyone plays alone or in small groups of 2-3 while the only all chat I see is "WTS GODLY SWORD 50K" spammed over and over again in mission towns...

I dunno if we've been playing different games or what, but I haven't noticed this change at all. I still see people pugging (at least the LFG spam of 10-15 people), and there's always been trade spam. Also, heroes haven't made me stop using PUGs - I ragequit using those my first month in the game, over a year ago. All heroes have done is give me customization to the henches I'd be using anyway. I'm pretty sure others feel the same. We weren't going to PUG anyway, so thanks for the ability to customize our henches, Anet.